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Posted by tjaalzchess www6conf.org 4/14/2008 11:03:32 play online chess	Subject: Mate with only knight and bisschop?? Message: The endgame is me with only a knight and bishop. My opponent offers a draw, saying I cant mate her. But is it really impossible to mate someone with bishop, knight and king?
Posted by chessnovice www6conf.org 4/14/2008 12:23:44 play online chess	... Message: We can't really talk about ongoing, active games.
Posted by ganstaman www6conf.org 4/14/2008 12:46:00 play online chess	Message: Right, we can't offer help in these situations, but printed or online material (not tablebases) can. Check out any endgame book, or something like wikipedia. That will legally help you play the ending. Just for starters, there should be a useful link somewhere on here: en.wikipedia.org
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 4/14/2008 13:41:28 play online chess	Without looking at the position... Message: ... I think it is reasonable to make a general response to the question. Yes: a K+B+N can, in general, force mate against a lone K. But the technique isn't easy. In your game (assuming you are already in such an endgame), you have 50 moves to effect the mate from the last pawn move or capture (there are no more pawns to move, and any further capture will instantly reduce the game to a draw through lack of material). Else, it is a draw. I don't think one can say more at this point... Cheers, Ion
Posted by ccmcacollister www6conf.org 4/14/2008 16:07:43 play online chess	hmmm Message: He didn't say what Color that Bishop was . . . }8-D
Posted by marinvukusic www6conf.org 4/15/2008 00:54:39 play online chess	... Message: That is probably the most difficult practical ending in chess (I am not counting studies obviously). In Blitz: - I couldn't deliver that mate against a significantly weaker player - One IM couldn't mate me - I watched a FM fail to deliver the mate I am confident I could do it in correspondence chess without any help but it is objectively not to be expected from a player of your rating. That does not mean you can't learn how to do it before you end the game. Use of tablebases is forbidden.
Posted by tjaalzchess www6conf.org 4/15/2008 01:06:38 play online chess	Message: Thanks for the response. I wasn't asking for help, but just a simple yes or no ( possible or impossible ), because I had never seen a endgame with knight and bishop.
Posted by 8ballphoenix www6conf.org 4/15/2008 12:38:14 play online chess	Somewhere Message: Amongst the annotated games a few months ago someone (I can't remember who) posted a few complicated endgame studies, one of which was a K+N+B vs K endgame. Obviously this wouldn't help with the game in question as it only studies from one position, with one sequence of moves, but it does explain the general technique. Is there any way of searching the annotated games for a particular game? I've not yet been in a position where I have to achieve this mate, though I have been close a few times. Should it happen I'm not sure I could see it through but it would be interesting to try and I too wouldn't accept a draw offer. I certainly wouldn't expect my opponent to resign though. Incidentally I have played the person mentioned several times and in her defence have always found her to be a polite and pleasant opponent.
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 4/15/2008 13:34:52 play online chess	Bragging time! Message: I've had B+N+K vs lone K 3 times in the past - and won them all. I ought to leave it at that, but I have to confess that I've been lucky on all three occasions for the pieces already to be very favourably placed so that the mate was achieved in maybe a dozen or so moves. It helped, too, that I knew what the forced mate position should look like. It also has to be admitted that all 3 were pick-up games - not a single tournament game among them. The only time I saw such an ending in a tournament game was at the universities' Arts Festival in Auckland, 1972. Both were strong players (I'll call them Roger and Craig), but Craig was expected to win. Instead Roger attacked from the gun, Craig had to defend the whole game and finally baled out into this ending. And Roger could not win it. Not in 50 moves. Draw. Altogether and interesting endgame. Cheers, Ion
Posted by lighttotheright www6conf.org 4/15/2008 21:28:03 play online chess	Message: That is interesting...a draw between two strong players in this endgame! It's possible. I know this BN vs. K endgame like the back of my hand. I used to study it all the time before I moved onto the more difficult endgames. I don't even have to think while playing it and can beat anyone or any computer in 32 moves or less from any position. It is easy for me. Although this particular endgame is rare, studying it is valuable because you learn the relationship between the knight and bishop. This translates into better play in the middle game. Also openings tend to be less timid.
Posted by marinvukusic www6conf.org 4/16/2008 04:15:02 play online chess	Interesting quote from Wikipedia Message: "Although this is classified as one of the four "basic checkmates" (the others being king and queen; king and rook; or king and two bishops against a lone king), it only occurs in practice approximately once in every 5000 games (Müller & Lamprecht 2001)." Sounds about right. This is the precise reason many strong players have problems with it in time trouble (and obviously time trouble is common in OTB chess). Everybody learns it at some point in time but after a few years of never even seeing it the player forgets (and does not refresh his memory practicing a technique that is viewed as unlikely to ever be needed). The method is not 100% intuitive and there is a pretty small margin of error - 33 moves are needed to deliver chackmate in worst case scenarion, and every slip can easily extend the process beyond 50 moves.
Posted by lighttotheright www6conf.org 4/16/2008 06:51:14 play online chess	Message: Although every book I've seen on the subject says 33 moves, I've proved to my satisfaction that it can be done in 32 or less. Again, the technique to reduce the endgame by the one move seems counter-intuitive at first (but with a deeper analysis it actually makes perfect sense). Most tutorials on the subject only tell you that you need to drive the King to the edge and then to a corner. The detailed explanations only come with driving the King from the wrong corner into the correct corner and then delivering mate. Most leave it up to the student to figure out how to drive the King out of the center of the board. If you drive the King out of the center in the proper way, then your King does not need to travel as much to create the necessary opposition to 'force the hand of the defender'. You save at least a move in the worse scenario and are much less likely to make a mistake because the technique is clearer (at least in my mind).
Posted by tjaalzchess www6conf.org 4/16/2008 07:49:26 play online chess	Resigned Message: to bad my opponent resigned I was going to checkmate her : game The next steps would be : 96. Kh7 Kf7 97. Kh6 Bh4 98. Kh7 Bg5 99. Kh8 Ng6+ 100. Kh7 Nf8+ 101. Kh8 Bf6# ( mate in 18 moves from last capture)
Posted by tim_b www6conf.org 4/16/2008 08:42:49 play online chess	Nice one! Message: The title of the tournament is appropriate - it wasn't a draw and you proved it.
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 4/16/2008 13:51:32 play online chess	I think I can guess... Message: ... why your opponent got so toey: she threw away a fine chance to bring the thing to a quick draw. Here's the plot, with white about to play her 40th move: w White played 40.h4!! Now, after Black's reply, it is possible she thought she had blundered... 40...Nf8+ But White's next was the mistake... 41.Kf5?? ... White had an instant draw with 41.Kd5!, and after the bishop moves, 42.Rh8 ... 43.Rxf8+. Protecting the bishop don't help (41...Nd7 42.Rxd7), nor does taking the rook (41...Nxh7 42.Kxc5). Black had no way to avert the loss of one of the minor pieces, so it's an easy draw. Almost study-like... Cheers, Ion
Posted by tjaalzchess www6conf.org 4/17/2008 00:28:44 play online chess	Message: Yes I also saw that mistake.Before that point I would have been happy with a draw, so I was prepared for a bishop - rook exchange. Things turned out different. Charles
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 4/25/2008 15:06:10 play online chess	Incidentally... Message: ... If you want to see R+2P vs B+N, check out sago vs ionadowman. Sorry - can't give the link; the game was played nearly a year ago now... Cheers, Ion
Posted by bonsai www6conf.org 4/25/2008 15:32:37 play online chess	32 moves - counter example Message: Regarding lighttotheright's comment:"Although every book I've seen on the subject says 33 moves, I've proved to my satisfaction that it can be done in 32 or less. " No, a counter example is white to move (mate in 33): white: Ka1, Bc1, Nb1 black: Kc2
Posted by heinzkat www6conf.org 4/25/2008 16:24:23 play online chess	Message: game
Posted by lighttotheright www6conf.org 4/26/2008 12:54:36 play online chess	Message: bonsai--That is a good find, but... When is that position ever going to turn up in a game? It's a little bit like expecting to be able to mate in the wrong corner, isn't it?
Posted by tag1153 www6conf.org 5/27/2008 15:46:21 play online chess	My first on GK Message: gameknot.com
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 5/28/2008 01:00:34 play online chess	tag1153... Message: Not bad! Decisively finished, too. A belated thanks to heinzkat, too, for providing the link to my game vs sago. I still haven't finished annotating the thing... Cheers, Ion
Posted by buddie www6conf.org 5/28/2008 15:28:43 play online chess	K, B + N Mate Message: Here I am on the wrong end of the K,B + N mate. game By the way, anyone played a game on GK longer than 130 moves?
Posted by ccmcacollister www6conf.org 5/28/2008 16:37:45 play online chess	buddie ... Message: I don't know about other games, but one here on GK was over 3000 moves. Obviously they were trying to make it as long as possible. IMO 130 is quite long for a "real" game. * * * * * * * I've only had one of mine, maybe two, go that long in my 30+ years of playing otb tournaments. And the one I recall was an endgame of R vs R+N with no pawns, vs a Master, and took over 8 hours to play! Naturally, I was on the weak side of that ending, but did manage to Draw when we both got so tired an important move was overlooked which made it impossible to be won within the "50 Move Rule".
Posted by loreta www6conf.org 6/02/2008 06:49:28 play online chess	K + B + N vs K Message: all depends on a color of chessboard ....
Chess news: Telegraph chess: Alexander Grischuk has the edge -- The 2006 World Blitz champion Alexander Grischuk faces the chess prodigy Teimour Radjabov in the final of the 2nd Bank Pivdenny ACP Rapid Chess Cup at Odessa. Grischuk overcame another chess prodigy, Sergey Karjakin in the semi final as Radjabov defeated former Russian chess champion Dmitry Jakovenko. The contest promises a $40,000 prize to the winner and Grischuk, who says he does not even enjoy Classical Chess, the slower form of the game, is probably a slight favourite even if Radjabov has eliminated the great Vassily Ivanchuk. Semi finals: Radjabov Azerbaijan 2-0 Jakovenko Russia, Karjakin Ukraine 2-3 Grischuk Russia. Karjakin had a little luck in the first Blitz tie break game against Gelfand. S Karjakin - B Gelfand ... Telegraph chess: Radjabov romps home -- Long standing Telegraph Chess readers will not need to be told that Teimour Radjabov was the winner of the 2nd Bank Pivdenny ACP Rapid Chess Cup at Odessa after your correspondent tipped his opponent Alexander Grischuk yesterday. Twenty year old Radjabov who hails from Garry Kasparov’s birthplace of Baku defeated the former World Blitz champion in a Blitz playoff after the two Rapid Chess games had been drawn. Radjabov took home the victor’s prize of $40,000 for his efforts. Undoubtedly Radjabov’s skilful and relatively swift demolition of his semi final opponent Dmitry Jakovenko gave him an edge as Grischuk must have used a lot of nervous energy in his epic semi final match against Sergey Karjakin which swung one way then the other. The Rapid Games were fairly uneventful but in the Blitz Radjabov played some excellent chess, maintaining ... Barden on Chess -- It's a now familiar tale. The annual Hastings Masters ended in a tie on 7.5/10 among three ex-Soviet grandmasters, with a rash of short draws in the final rounds. The leading English GMs Glenn Flear, Gawain Jones and Nick Pert were half a point behind. The British chess championship and many international opens now insist on a sole winner, allocating part of the prize fund to a speed tie-break. Hastings should follow suit and, if that means blitz games at midnight or during the following day's prize ceremony, so be it. The damage to the chess event's reputation from unsplit, tacitly arranged multiple first-place ties is palpable. For most of the event it looked as if Simon Williams, England's most creative chess player, would be the tournament hero as he took or shared the lead. But after securing ...